ADRIAN MA, HOST:
The 98th Academy Awards are tonight, and I got to admit that I actually haven't watched the Oscars in many years because the show itself is not the most interesting part to me. What's interesting is what comes after the awards. Then come the hot takes, the complaints, the outrage. Wait, this film won and not the other one? And how did that actor get a little gold statue and not my favorite actor? We call these injustices of Oscardom (ph) the Oscar grievance, and every movie fan has at least one or if you're our guest today, a few. So to get us ready for the inevitable Oscar debates to come and share some of their own Oscar grievances, I'm joined by ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers. Hey, Marc.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Adrian.
MA: And Stephen Thompson, host of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast - hey, Stephen.
STEPHEN THOMPSON, BYLINE: Hey. It's great to be here.
MA: Let's just dive in. Stephen, I'll start with you. What is your Oscar grievance?
THOMPSON: Well, what really does it for me - I wish I could go back in time and kind of reverse engineer what has turned into an ongoing year-over-year issue with the Academy Awards, namely that they keep nominating songwriter Diane Warren. Now, this year she is nominated for a 17th time. She has been nominated...
MA: Whoa.
THOMPSON: ...For 17 Academy Awards. She has never won. She did win an honorary Oscar a few years ago. But for Diane Warren, if you have watched the documentary about Diane Warren called "Diane Warren: Relentless," you know that Diane Warren does not consider that to be a real Oscar. She wants to win an Oscar specifically for songwriting.
Now, what I would like to do, Adrian and Marc, I would like to go back in time. I would like to take an Academy Award away from the great Stephen Schwartz, who has won three Oscars. I would like to take one of them away. And specifically, I would like to take away the Oscar that he won for writing the song, "When You Believe," from the 1998 film, "The Prince Of Egypt."
MA: Ah, so good.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WHEN YOU BELIEVE")
SALLY DWORSKY: (As Miriam, singing) Who knows what miracles you can achieve when you believe somehow...
THOMPSON: It's a good song. I would like to take that Oscar away and give it to Diane Warren for writing the song, "I Don't Want To Miss A Thing" by Aerosmith from the Oscar-ladened film "Armageddon."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I DON'T WANT TO MISS A THING")
AEROSMITH: (Singing) I don't want to close my eyes. I don't want to fall asleep 'cause I'd miss you, baby. And I don't want to miss a thing.
RIVERS: I think one of the best songs to be featured in a movie about an asteroid coming to hit Earth. Like...
THOMPSON: Yes. I think that's right. Take that "Deep Impact."
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: I would like to give Diane Warren that Oscar so that she could not be nominated in, for example, the last nine years, when she has been nominated every single year for a series of almost entirely forgettable songs. She is nominated for a song from the documentary "Diane Warren: Relentless,"...
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: ...In which she writes a song to her younger self.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DEAR ME")
KESHA: (Singing) Dear me, don't worry about it.
THOMPSON: And look, it's fine. But is it one of the five best songs from movies from last year? It is absolutely not.
MA: Wow.
RIVERS: Forever a bridesmaid.
(LAUGHTER)
MA: Stephen starting us off hot.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
MA: Marc, what is your favorite Oscar grievance?
RIVERS: My one big one and, like, stay with me here, Tom Hanks, who - we all love Tom Hanks, you know, one of our beloved actors, right? He has won two Oscars, both for performances that I do not enjoy for different reasons.
MA: (Laughter) OK.
RIVERS: He won for "Philadelphia" - '93's "Philadelphia," 1994's "Forrest Gump." And in "Philadelphia," he's playing - you know, he's playing this gay man who has AIDs, but he's not really playing a person. He's kind of playing a symbol of noble suffering. He's a Christ figure in "Philadelphia."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PHILADELPHIA")
TOM HANKS: (As Andrew Beckett) Do you ever pray?
DENZEL WASHINGTON: (As Joe Miller) Andrew, that is not the answer to the question. But yes, I pray.
HANKS: (As Andrew Beckett) What do you pray for?
RIVERS: In "Forrest Gump," he's doing one of my least favorite things, which he is playing - he's playing a person with a - you know, mental or physical disabilities.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FORREST GUMP")
HANKS: (As Forrest Gump) Hello. My name's Forrest, Forrest Gump.
RIVERS: There's something so stunt-like about those kind of performances to me. And what I would do is I would take both of those Oscars away, but...
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: ...You know, don't fret, Mr. Hanks. He's going to win a lot earlier. He's going to win for 1988's "Big."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BIG")
HANKS: (As Josh, singing) The space goes down, down, baby, down, down the roller coaster. Sweet, sweet, baby, sweet, sweet, don't let me go. Shimmy, shimmy cocoa pop. Shimmy, shimmy rock.
THOMPSON: I love that performance.
RIVERS: What Hanks does in this film is true movie magic. You believe that this adolescent middle school boy is inside the body of this adult man. And then that opens up two Oscars. In '93, you have two great options here, Liam Neeson for "Schindler's List"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SCHINDLER'S LIST")
LIAM NEESON: (As Oskar Schindler) I could have got more out.
MA: Oh, boy.
RIVERS: ...Also Laurence Fishburne for "What's Love Got To Do With It," playing Ike Turner.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WHAT'S LOVE GOT TO DO WITH IT")
LAURENCE FISHBURNE: (As Ike Turner) What's wrong with you...
ANGELA BASSETT: (As Tina Turner) Don't.
FISHBURNE: (As Ike Turner) ...Talkin' to me like that? Huh? What'd you say?
RIVERS: In '94, that frees up Morgan Freeman to win for "The Shawshank Redemption."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION")
MORGAN FREEMAN: (As Ellis Boyd "Red" Redding) I look back on the way I was then, a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime...
RIVERS: Then that causes a cascading effect where he doesn't have to win in 2004 for "Million Dollar Baby," which is more of a career IOU. And then that can go to Clive Owen for "Closer." It can go to Thomas Haden Church for "Sideways." Like, if we just free up those two undeserved Oscars in '93 and '94, it just - it spreads the wealth judiciously. And then Dustin Hoffman, who won back in '88 for "Rain Man," he's already won for "Kramer V. Kramer" (ph). He doesn't need another one for, again, doing this kind of, to me, very kind of self-indulgent work, playing a person with autism. Just take that Oscar away.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
MA: OK.
RIVERS: Yeah.
MA: So with your tweaks, the world - it will be like a ripple effect of positive...
THOMPSON: A butterfly flapping its wings.
RIVERS: Positivity spreads, a redistribution of Oscars.
MA: OK. Can I tell you my grievance?
THOMPSON: Yes.
RIVERS: Yeah, yeah.
MA: It's less about a specific award and more, I guess, about the structure of what kinds of films get best picture Oscars...
THOMPSON: Oh, yeah.
MA: ...'Cause they're all sort of, like, very serious, important fancy-pants movies. And I've always wondered why you don't see, like, comedies get the Oscar, or why they don't have a category for that 'cause for me, like, some of my favorite movies are comedies.
RIVERS: Yeah.
MA: Like, "Zoolander" is my "Citizen Kane."
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: You and Terrance (ph) are (inaudible) about "Zoolander."
THOMPSON: Why? Why was "Zoolander" robbed?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ZOOLANDER")
CHRISTINE TAYLOR: (As Matilda Jeffries) When I was in seventh grade, I became bulimic.
BEN STILLER: (As Derek Zoolander) You can read minds?
RIVERS: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think you're kind of saying it already, Adrian. Like, the academy tends to award what they deem is more serious fare. They're going to award the movie about, you know, the serious subject, you know, the Holocaust, war, what have you, a tragic romance. They're not necessarily going to go for, you know, Ben Stiller playing a model.
MA: A very...
(LAUGHTER)
MA: A movie that taught us a very serious lesson, though - right? - that life isn't just about being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: No, yeah, like, lessons to live by, you know?
MA: Yeah.
RIVERS: But yeah, there are noted genres like comedies, like horror that tend to not do as well with the academy. But I think the academy that wouldn't award those things, that academy is changing a little bit. We see this year...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
RIVERS: With "Sinners" - right?- which set a record for the most nominated movie of all time in Oscar history with 16 nominations.
MA: Good point.
RIVERS: Guillermo del Toro's "Frankenstein" got a lot of major nominations.
THOMPSON: Amy Madigan, nominated for "Weapons"...
RIVERS: Amy Madigan for "Weapons."
THOMPSON: ...Which is a horor movie. Yeah.
RIVERS: So I do think we're seeing an academy that's becoming hipper, cooler, you know, less buttoned up. And this, I think, is a result of the academy's attempts over the last decade or so to diversify its ranks, make it more international, make it younger. It still leans more old, male and white, but it's less that than it was in the days when, you know, "Terms Of Endearment" or "Titanic" was winning, like, the top awards.
THOMPSON: Well, and more to the point, this kind of deadly stretch kind of at the beginning of the 21st century, where almost every major nominated movie was some kind of historical drama - and I think the Oscars have really done well to get away from not as many historical dramas, not as many biopics. But in recent years, they have gotten better about that, and that particular grievance really doesn't apply almost at all in this particular awards crop.
MA: Stephen, Marc, I feel like we've had a lot of catharsis here in the last few minutes.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
RIVERS: You know, the Oscars don't always offer it, so we have to make it for ourselves.
MA: (Laughter) Well...
THOMPSON: This year, I believe. I'm optimistic this year.
MA: Or we could be sitting here in a week, you know, with a whole new ball of rage to talk about, so...
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
RIVERS: That's part of the fun.
THOMPSON: How did "F1" win best picture?
(LAUGHTER)
MA: We've been joined by NPR's Stephen Thompson and Marc Rivers. Thanks for joining us, guys.
RIVERS: You're welcome.
THOMPSON: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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